An interview with God on suffering
Interviewer: Do you care what people think of you?God: Yes. More than you can know. But I care more about what I think of them— they’re my children. And I care even more about what I think of me; their blessing and destriny hinges on that.
I heard a man saying he found it impossible to say you would bring about the death of a child or a child’s grandmother.
Why do you think he would say it was practically impossible for him to believe such a thing?
Um...he didn’t say, but the impression he left with me was that it would be cruel and unworthy of you. He clearly implied you wouldn’t do such a thing because, as he went on to say, "What kind of God would take away a little girl’s...favorite baby-sitter and playmate?"
But I did that. I told Joshua and others to kill infants. What kind of a God does that make me? And I sent a flood on the world and drought and famine on Israel and others.
Nazis ordered the killing of men, women and children.
So they did.
And you have done the same thing?
Are you asking me if my ordering Joshua to slay infants was the "same thing" as what the Nazis did?
Well, I understand that your motivation and purpose were totally different but if you ordered their death you ordered their death.
But if my motivation and purpose is totally different then it isn’t the same thing, is it? Do you think a judge who in the name of the people orders the death of an impenitent serial killer does the same thing as a Nazi commandant? Do you think the desperate work that goes in a hospital ER is the same thing as Nazi medical experiments?
Well, no, I suppose not.
You "suppose" not, does that mean you don’t recognise that they’re altogether different actions?
Yes, of course they’re different but there are believers that find it hard to believe you would take the life of a child or its grandmother.
Have I not said that I have done it?
Yes, but it’s still hard to believe it.
But if I’ve said and done it the proper response in not to deny it but to believe it!
Yes, but if we tell that to children it would be no surprise if they grew up hating you.
Well, maybe there are some that are obtuse enough to speak to children as if they were speaking to experienced adult believers. People that silly might surprise even me. Still, pedagogy aside, the question is, would you tell that truth to anyone? People who believe I have said and done such things—if they’re sensitive and wise—will teach children wisely. But this is a bit of a smokescreen because people like the man you mentioned won’t say it to anyone and the reason they won’t say it to anyone has nothing to do with the effect it might have on children. They deny that I have said and have done such things and won’t speak it.
But you can understand why they’d be concerned about saying it to distraught children.
I would understand why they’d be concerned to say it to distraught adults! But the issue is not pedagogy—these people refuse to say it because they don’t believe it. They wouldn’t even say it to Michael the archangel who doesn’t get distraught about anything. They refuse to believe it because they think such actions are cruel and unworthy of me. You can hear that in the phrases like "What kind of God would...?" [Would you like me to comment on the kind of effect that could have on thousands of pained souls?]
But if you say you have caused the death of many children and their grandparents...
Excuse me for interrupting, there’s no "if" about it. I have said so, repeatedly.
Yes, well, do you not feel the anguish that such people feel? It sort of looks like sinful humans are more compassionate than you are.
Yes, some speakers give that impression, but I’m used to hearing it. Listen carefully to me, I care more for the least of my children than these people care for the best and dearest of them. But I’m on record as saying that and I’ve expressed it by putting my innocent Son to grief.
But they say these things really to defend you.
Perhaps they do. But I’ve spoken on the matter in the plainest possible terms and the better way to "defend" me is to abide by my word.
Ah...true, but they want us to be careful what we say about you in case we give needless offence to a vast number of people that are in pain.
Yes, I’ve heard that and it’s commendable, but here’s something I want you to think about. Suppose they convinced a great host that only a cruel and uncaring God would cause the death of a child and family members. Then suppose this great host read the Bible and discovered that I have done these very things. Will they have to choose between the Bible and me?
Well, that’s something that needs to be considered. But it’s all so confusing and there are so many aspects to the suffering question.
This is so but it would be better to admit that and accept some "mystery" than deny my plain claims. I’d rather have people proclaim the scriptures and then work from a "faith seeks understanding" position than adopting some moral philosophy that ignores plain sections and the whole drift of scripture. I can understand non-believers beginning from an "understanding seeks faith" position but that’s not open to those who say they already believe.
My suspicion is that these people would accept that you did these things you said you did in scripture but they have difficulty believing you do it today.
You may well be right but you do see the difficulty that puts them in? If they say (and they do say!) that a God who’d cause the death of a child and family members is cruel and unworthy of worship then according to them I can never do it, in the Bible or out of it. I could never ever do the cruel and unworthy act so something has to be done with the Bible’s witness that I deliberately caused the death of children and family members. If it bears witness that I have said and done such things then either it is false or I really am a cruel and heartless God. Do I need to remind you that hundreds of thousands have come to reject the Bible because it tells them I did things that they think are heartless and cruel? Everyone needs to be careful what they say about suffering and God.
It’s interesting that these believers are deliriously happy when they rehearse the deliverance of Israel from Egypt. It seems they forget that I liberated Israel by ruining Egypt, children included. And I did it via "natural" disasters.
But so much appears random and too difficult to weave together. Some of it seems incredible.
You said that already, and yes, there are difficulties involved for humans as they try to think it all out but listen to me, this is not first about pedagogy or your developed views of sovereignty or how meticulous one’s view of providence is—it’s about what I claim and repeatedly claim in scripture. It doesn’t matter that you or others can’t exactly work out how freewill and my sovereignty can be integrated. Those are not the issues—they’re important issues but they’re beside the point right now. The issue is this: have I said and done such things in the Bible? If the answer is "yes" then all the talk about "what kind of God would...?" is way off the mark and creates needless offence.
And what is it, precisely, that you think seems "incredible"? That I would send a deluge on the world in which innocent children would die? That I would create a drought or a famine that would cause the death of innocent children and their righteous family members?
No...but...in many cases this one dies and another doesn’t, this family survives and another doesn’t. It all seems so random.
What, precisely, seems "random"? The arrival of the droughts I sent on Israel and other nations or the judgement on Sodom? Do the plagues on Egypt seem "random" to you? Because I leave some survivors, because some are taken and others are left, you call the plagues and various judgements "random"?
What do you mean by "random"?
Well, the word means that an event occurs without "aim or purpose or principle".
And you think my biblical judgements on the human family are without "aim or purpose or principle"?
But, look, drought and floods and earthquakes and hurricanes are "random" events. They happen all by themselves. You step in after the catastrophes to make them work out for good.
They happen all by themselves? The Genesis flood, the Egyptian plagues and the Elijah drought all happened by themselves?
And are you implying that my wrath is not good? You don't know that my wrath is another expression of my saving grace?
Ah, yes, but you told us you brought those droughts and famines and plagues and invading armies. That’s not to say you do it today.
Yes, but you don’t see what you’re confessing when you say that. You confess that I did do such things. If these well-intentioned people are right in their innuendoes, then I’m cruel and heartless and unworthy of worship because I did them.
You need to make up your mind to this, if it is evil for me to do such things today because they would be heartless and cruel it was evil for me to do them back then.
And, finally, you admit I brought these "natural" calamities and yet you call them "random". This ought to tell you need to do some thinking about the word "random".
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